Warrior Cats Online - Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

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Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

WARNING: SPOILER ALERT
Thistleclaw is not evil
Yes, I just said that, because I think he isn't. I have reasons for saying this. Think back to when Thistleclaw was a kit - a cute ball of grey-mottled spikey fur. What did he want most of all? To become an apprentice and learn the ways of a warrior to protect his Clan, and when he was an apprentice, what did he want to do? Become a warrior to protect his Clan no matter what. Remember when he was a kit, and Snowpaw and Bluepaw were made apprentices? He ran over, though looking annoyed, and said he wanted to be an apprentice, because he was a better fighter than they'd ever be. What does that show? That shows loyalty, at least I sure think it does. If anything, throughout the book, and all books where Thistleclaw is mentioned, Bluestar makes him look evil, because she doesn't like him at all. Before ThunderClan went to ambush WindClan, what did Thistlekit try to do? Sneak out with the cats, just so he could fight to keep his Clan safe. Thistlekit was an adorable little bundle of loyalty.
As an apprentice, Thistlepaw was a hard-working cat, and when he nearly fought with a ShadowClan apprentice at a Gathering, he was provoked. Thistlepaw worked hard to make sure his Clan was well-fed and well protected, and he was a great warrior too.
Think about when Sweetpaw, Thistleclaw's sister, died. He insisted he bury her himself, that shows he loved his sister. Before you tell me Thistleclaw did tell Tigerpaw to kill Tiny, who later becomes Scourge, he didn't. He told Tigerpaw to defend their territory, and Tigerpaw took it way too far, now Thistleclaw could have stopped him and the fact that he didn't IS wrong, BUT it's a whole different ballgame than telling Tigerpaw to try to kill a kit.
Thistleclaw was devastated when his mate left her only kit alone, and when he blamed Bluefur? Please, how would you feel if someone had've been with someone you loved when they'd died, and did nothing except yell? Thistleclaw taught his son to become a great warrior and ThunderClan's former deputy, Whitestorm. Thistleclaw actually wouldn't have made a bad deputy, a loyal warrior who was not afraid to die for his Clan's safety. And remember how Bluestar said he died in a fight he'd started with another Clan? Who decides whether the cats fight or not? Well so did Russetfur, but I don't see anyone saying she's evil. That was one of the things that irked me the most about Bluestar - she hated Thistleclaw for no particular reason.
Feel free to debate any of these points, sorry for the long rant.
I don't mean to make any enemies with this post I just want to have a good discussion with all of you guys.

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FadingEchoes (Post 406823)

Thistleclaw is in the Dark Forest because he trained in the Dark Forest plain and simple. I don't remember much since it's been a long time since I read Bluestar's Prophecy, but despite everything else, the reason he's not in Starclan is because he defied them and trained in the Dark Forest.

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

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Originally Posted by Duststorm (Post 406845)

i believe it was revealed in crookedstar's promise!

i don't really consider the dark forest training to be a viable reason to send someone there, given a lot of cats in the series did the same -- it's more likely he was sent there for killing a cat while training there (don't remember where it was shown but i believe the cat was houndtooth) and also condoning the harm of a kit (scourge). while all trespassers should be challenged, it was out of line for him to let tigerpaw attack him (and more so to be willing to let him severely injure him.)

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

there was also the whole situation with spottedleaf, which was.. disturbing, even if realistic for cats, as they're essentially humans as they're written in the books.

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

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Originally Posted by Mad King (Post 406848)

I just bought Crooked's Promise! And that's a fair assessment. Bramblestar was previously in the DF as well, but retained a Leader (with 9 nines granted) status. My perspective on it, as far as Thistle and Blue; Blue redeemed herself while Thistle never did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crow (Post 406852)

there was also the whole situation with spottedleaf, which was.. disturbing, even if realistic for cats, as they're essentially humans as they're written in the books.

Yeaaaaaaah, that's generally my viewpoint as well. While realistically a cat at 6 months old has reached sexual maturity, it's painted in the books like apprentices are child/teenage aged due to their humanization. Also a fun fact, apprentices are actually the same size,
of not a bit smaller, than their mentors due to them being a "full-grown cat!"

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

I watched a Thistleclaw AMV a long time ago and the YouTuber who made it, who is known as Moonlightnebula, made a long document explaining how he isn't an evil as he seems. I, for one, love Thistleclaw, being one of my favorite characters, though I love most characters that are often seen as evil - including Scourge and Hawkfrost. I thought I would put this here to help the argument.

[CLICK THIS]

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

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Originally Posted by The Little Robin (Post 406856)

I will point out, unless it was written by someone who was completely neutral about Thistle/Blue (which it is apparent it's not), the doc is extremely one-sided about the characters. You can tell in the way it's written that the author is highlighting Bluestar's flaws and mistakes, while praising Thistleclaw and ignoring the reason why he is in the DF in the first place. Of course Thistle is a good character as far as character building, stages of grief go, but that doesn't excuse his actions in Spotted's book, especially since the author is using the other special editions to make their point. That also doesn't mean people aren't allowed to love him. You can be an evil/abrasive character and still care about your family or protect your clan. The author also mentions grief a lot regarding Thistle (ie. losing his sister, mate, etc.) but does not mention Bluefur/star's grieving period. Either way, it was an interesting read!

Here's a few of my own videos I think people should give a watch!

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

I haven't read Spotted's book, so that may be why I don't see Thistleclaw as that bad. I think he definitely messed up a whole lot, but Ivypool and Blossomfall also trained in the Dark Forest, and I think it's at least possible Thistleclaw thought it would make him a better warrior for his clan.
As far as Tiny goes, I really blame Tigerpaw for that one, while Thistleclaw definitely could have not let Tigerpaw go so far, teaching your apprentice to chase off intruders, whether they're "harmless" or not, is what warriors are supposed to do. In the first book, when Graypaw is chasing Rusty away, after the fight he says, "You're lucky I'm not a full warrior, or I'd have given you some real wounds to think about."(I'm paraphrasing, I haven't read the books in a while.) And later on in the book Firepaw chases Smudge off before realizing it was his old friend. All in all I certainly don't think Thistleclaw is a saint, but all of his truly Evil actions seemed to have happened after he was sent to the Dark Forest. But again, I haven't read Spotted's book so I'm probably missing a couple things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crow (Post 406852)

there was also the whole situation with spottedleaf, which was.. disturbing, even if realistic for cats, as they're essentially humans as they're written in the books.

As far as that goes, I think about Fernpaw and Dustpelt, just because Fernpaw didn't return his advances doesn't make it less weird. Although I do agree that he should have left her alone, their age isn't exactly the problem, consent is.

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

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Originally Posted by FadingEchoes (Post 406886)

it wasn't just the age problem (note that i don't support dustfern either), it was also the manipulation aspect of their relationship.

Re: Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

Kk without reading any comments, heres my thing:

Did he deserve it?

We can't be sure. There isn't enough to be told about Thistleclaw. Yes, he trained in the DS, but so did ivypool, blossomfall, birchfall, etc. However, contradicting what i just said, he accepted the evilness from the DS instead of slowly rejecting it. Bluestar described Thistleclaw as bloodthirsty and cruel, but we don't know if that is true. Bluestar had been mentally unstable ever since her mother and sister had died. Perhaps she twisted it, or maybe she's right. We never saw Thistleclaw up close and personal. Yes, we saw him interact with Snowfur and Bluefur, but what was going through his head?
Thistleclaw trained Tigerpaw (soon to be the infamous Tigerstar) to be fierce and relentless, as shown in Scourge's manga. Thistleclaw egged him on as he beat up a kittypet kitten, but Bluefur, deputy at the time (i think), forced them to stop. All in all, this reveals that Thistleclaw had been influencing Tigerpaw badly, thus this makes him one of the cruelest cats in history. Now is that bad? Kinda.
Maybe Thistleclaw didn't realize how horrible Tigerpaw had grown as he trained him. Maybe he was blinded by ambition, much like Tigerclaw.

Idk man
My train of thought just disappeared. :p
Ill read the other comments now